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    "original_url": "https:\/\/www.nytimes.com\/2026\/09\/25\/podcasts\/the-daily\/the-life-and-for-now-the-death-of-the-kennedy-center.html?emc=edit_nn_20261001&nl=the-morning&segment_id=227346",
    "parsed_content": "Back to The Daily0:00\/32:52-32:52transcriptThe Life and, for Now, the Death of the Kennedy CenterThe arts center has been a project of President Trump since the beginning of his second term. 2026-09-25T06:00:14-04:00This transcript was created using speech recognition software. While it has been reviewed by human transcribers, it may contain errors. Please review the episode audio before quoting from this transcript and email transcripts@nytimes.com with any questions.[CHIME RINGS]sandy weisswasserOh, yeah. Yeah, this is what they play when the performance is about to start. You\u2019re calling people in.[PENSIVE MUSIC]elizabeth williamsonSo a few months ago, I took a tour of the Kennedy Center with a tour guide there.elizabeth williamsonOh, can I get your name?sandy weisswasserOh, Sandy Weisswasser.elizabeth williamsonOK.elizabeth williamsonA volunteer named Sandy Weisswasser.elizabeth williamsonWow, I got to spell that out.sandy weisswasserW-E-I-S-S-W-A-S \u2014elizabeth williamsonShe\u2019s 87 years old. She\u2019s a huge bundle of energy. And for the last 20 years, she\u2019s given tours every single Monday.elizabeth williamsonAre you an artist yourself?sandy weisswasserAm I an artist? No. I play the piano, though.elizabeth williamsonYou do?sandy weisswasserAnd I care a lot about the arts. I mean, I love ballet and opera. And \u2014elizabeth williamsonBefore President Trump took over the Kennedy Center, Sandy\u2019s tours were always packed. But then he took over, made a lot of changes, and people stopped coming. And so on the day that I was there, the center was empty, and I was the only person on Sandy\u2019s tour.sandy weisswasserSo this foyer apparently is one of the largest \u2014elizabeth williamsonAnd as she walked me through the center \u2014sandy weisswasserThe largest gift is this marble, which comes from Carrara, Italy. Beautiful chandelier is done by Dale Chihuly.elizabeth williamsonIt was clear how proud she was of the place.sandy weisswasserI like the undulating quality of it.elizabeth williamsonAnd how much she reveres it.sandy weisswasserNo bad seat in the place.elizabeth williamsonNo, it doesn\u2019t look like it.elizabeth williamsonBut at some point in the tour, it occurred to me that she was speaking in the past tense.sandy weisswasserThat\u2019s the other thing. When I give my tours now, do I give them present tense or past tense? It\u2019s very hard. What word to use? Many verbs, anyway.elizabeth williamsonAnd the tour she was giving was kind of a tour of wreckage. And what she was explaining and all of her memories started to sound a lot to me like a eulogy.sandy weisswasserSo I mean, all these little things about all the performers that are no longer here is very sad.elizabeth williamsonAnd it also became clear that in Sandy\u2019s mind, there was one person responsible for all that had happened to the Kennedy Center.elizabeth williamsonYes.sandy weisswasserI mean, this place used to be really thriving and busy and crowded. Now it\u2019s very empty.elizabeth williamsonAnd that was President Trump.michael barbaroFrom \u201cThe New York Times,\u201d I\u2019m Michael Barbaro. This is \u201cThe Daily.\u201d[SOMBER MUSIC]Today the life and, for the time being, the death of the Kennedy Center. My colleague Elizabeth Williamson brings us the story of how President Trump decided to take over and now shut down Washington\u2019s biggest and most celebrated home for the arts.[ROUSING MUSIC]It\u2019s Friday, September 25.Elizabeth, welcome back to \u201cThe Daily.\u201delizabeth williamsonMichael, it\u2019s great to join you.michael barbaroYou have been watching the Kennedy Center shutdown for months, first gradually and then abruptly, when it literally closed its doors about 10 days ago. So we\u2019re coming to you for what feels a bit like a postmortem here to understand why President Trump has closed this place down. And I think any good postmortem has to begin with the question of motivation. How do you think about his motivation here?elizabeth williamsonI think you have to go back to President Trump\u2019s first term. Remember, this was a really brutal election with a surprise result. He comes into the White House. He had been roundly rejected by cultural elites in New York City, the epicenter of the nation\u2019s cultural life. And he comes into Washington, where the center of the cultural life in the capital is the Kennedy Center.And he\u2019s thinking, I\u2019m the president now. So surely, he\u2019ll be welcomed more broadly by the culture once he\u2019s in the White House. But instead, that rejection really continued. And there was probably no better example in that first year than the annual Kennedy Center Honors, which is the Kennedy Center\u2019s biggest night of the year.michael barbaroAnd what form does that rejection take?elizabeth williamsonSo three of the five honorees in 2017 said that they either would not come to the White House for the presentation of the actual medals before the ceremony at the Kennedy Center or they were considering not coming.archived recording 1Why did you decide not to do that?archived recording (norman lear)Because he\u2019s made me feel it\u2019s not my White House.elizabeth williamsonThe first to say this was Norman Lear, who created \u201cAll in the Family\u201d and many of our most beloved sitcoms and television shows.archived recording (norman lear)But I\u2019ve gotten over that. It is my White House. It oughtn\u2019t to be his.elizabeth williamsonAnd Carmen de Lavallade, a dancer and choreographer, said out and out, no.archived recording (carmen de lavallade)I just can\u2019t. I\u2019m absolutely not going. I\u2019m 86 now. I have all these years. I have done what anybody asked me to, and this is the first time in my life I\u2019ve ever said no.elizabeth williamsonLionel Richie, who was also an honoree that year, said, well \u2014archived recording (lionel richie)I\u2019m going to just play it by ear.elizabeth williamsonI can\u2019t decide if I\u2019ll go.archived recording (lionel richie)I must tell you, I\u2019m not really happy as to what\u2019s going on right now with the controversies.elizabeth williamsonAnd I think that was quite a realization for him. He had gotten to the absolute top of our hierarchy. And still, that rejection continued. So Trump\u2019s response to that was to say, OK, if you don\u2019t want me, I don\u2019t want you either. And he just was generally a no show for the entirety of his four-year term.michael barbaroSo for the next four years, Trump basically boycotts the Kennedy Center and thoroughly writes it off.elizabeth williamsonYes. And so when he begins his second term in 2025, this is now \u2014 he\u2019s newly energized. He\u2019s got a different agenda when he comes in in his second term. As we well know, he is vowing to be people\u2019s retribution. But he\u2019s also remaking aspects of society, including our cultural life. He comes in as an anti-woke president. He won on that. So barely in office for a month, 18 days to be exact, he starts to launch a plan to take over the Kennedy Center.michael barbaroAnd take it over how? Just logistically, what power does he have over it, and how does he end up taking it over?elizabeth williamsonSo the president has the power to appoint board members to the Kennedy Center, and they basically oversee the running of the center itself. Typically, the board members serve six-year terms. So you had overlapping administration board members, appointees.michael barbaroDemocrats, Republicans.elizabeth williamsonExactly, yeah. And they work together. And that was the way the Kennedy Center was designed. But he came in and eliminated all of the Biden-era appointees wholesale and then stacked the board with people who were loyal to himself, his Chief of Staff, Susie Wiles, the wife of the vice president, Usha Vance, Howard Lutnick\u2019s wife. And so they came in and took over the board, and then their first move was to vote to replace the chairman with Mr. Trump. And the existing chairman, David Rubenstein, he had personally given $111 million to the Kennedy Center, its facilities and its programming.michael barbaroSo immediately, the president replaces this mega-philanthropist to the Kennedy Center with basically himself?elizabeth williamsonYes.michael barbaroAnd what does Chairman of the Kennedy Center, Trump, do with this newfound power?archived recording (donald trump)It\u2019s a very exciting development.elizabeth williamsonSo President Trump convenes a call with his new handpicked board members, but he starts by bashing it as what he thinks it is.archived recording (donald trump)It got very wokey.elizabeth williamsonA bastion of cultural elites.archived recording (donald trump)And some people were not happy with it, and some people refuse to go. And we\u2019re not going to have that. We\u2019re going to have \u2014elizabeth williamsonDoing programming that everyday Americans aren\u2019t interested in and might even be offended by. And he\u2019s going to change all that.archived recording (donald trump)I think we\u2019re going to make it hot. And we made the presidency hot. So this should be easy.elizabeth williamsonAnd make the Kennedy Center hot again.archived recording (donald trump)So thank you all very much for your time. And \u2014michael barbaroI\u2019m curious if there\u2019s any truth to what Trump is saying to this board. Is it elitist? Does it have a left-wing tilt?elizabeth williamsonSo I think here is where you realize what a radical misconception the president was laboring under, and partly due to the fact that for his entire first term, he didn\u2019t step foot in the Kennedy Center.[CLASSICAL MUSIC]So it has a symphony. It has an opera. But the vast majority of its programming is meant to be entertainment, popular works.archived recording 2I\u2019ll just \u2014 I\u2019ll go backstage.archived recording 3Hey. Oh, that\u2019s OK. That\u2019s OK. I know that song. That\u2019s about my favorite street.archived recording 4Oh, Big Bird. Big Bird.archived recording 3Elmo!elizabeth williamsonSo you\u2019re talking about performances like Big Bird and Sesame Street characters.(SINGING) You make me feelYou make me feelAretha Franklin.archived recording 5Ladies and gentlemen, Garth Brooks.elizabeth williamsonGarth Brooks.[\"shower the people\" playing](SINGING) You can play the gameYou can act out the partFamous church chorale groups.[PIANO PLAYING](SINGING) Woo!The Washington Ballet had its children\u2019s recital. It was their chance to dance on the big stage.michael barbaroLocal little kids doing ballet.elizabeth williamsonYes, entire classes of school children came. My own children\u2019s classes came. Kids could run down the hall, the grand foyer, which is two football fields long. It was a wide-open place. My older son mentioned that the first time he ever saw \u201cJaws\u201d was projected on the side of The REACH, which is the Kennedy Center annex on a summer night.[OMINOUS MUSIC]archived recording 6Shut off that engine.michael barbaroPretty popular.elizabeth williamsonYeah, exactly. It was the kind of place meant to be open for everyone.archived recording 7You\u2019re going to need a bigger boat.michael barbaroWell, Elizabeth, even if the president\u2019s whole approach to the Kennedy Center is based on a radical misconception of it, how does this approach get put into practice in that first few months of him running it?elizabeth williamsonSo to direct the center\u2019s day-to-day activities, he brings on Richard Grenell, who is a partisan warrior, very combative guy. And his job is, really, to remake the center. So he starts berating people in the hallways, complaining about their activities vis-a-vis programming. He conducts mass firings. They started calling it Firing Fridays, where you get an email and you get 20 minutes to leave the building accompanied by security. So as he\u2019s wiping out the staff, one of the departments he targets is the fundraising department. He boasts that he reduced the numbers of people who were charged with bringing money in the door from 93 to 17 fundraisers.michael barbaroWow, a pretty interesting decision for a nonprofit that relies, I assume, quite heavily on fundraising.elizabeth williamsonExactly. So as this purge continues, performers and artists who are scheduled to perform at the center start getting wind of this, and they\u2019re objecting and cancelling. And he starts fighting with them, saying that the reason that they\u2019re leaving is because they are so woke. And I\u2019m trying to do a different thing here, and it doesn\u2019t matter. But the end result was ticket sales are plunging. Audiences are plunging. Performances are being cancelled.michael barbaroSo at this point in our autopsy, Trump via Grenell is taking actions that become offensive to these artists, who are turning around and undertaking the protests that would seem to make Trump\u2019s point about elitism, even if originally Trump\u2019s approach to the center was inaccurate.elizabeth williamsonYeah. So while Grenell is claiming that this exodus of artists was due to ideological reasons, at the same time, he starts to use ideology as a basis for extending invitations to others to come into the center.archived recording 8Hello, everyone. Good morning.elizabeth williamsonLike CPAC staged a conference on ending Christian persecution.archived recording 9Beautiful, beautiful and historic facility. And I just want to give a thanks to President of the Kennedy Center, Richard Grenell, for giving us the space. We were supposed to be \u2014elizabeth williamsonThey received a deeply discounted rate for renting the center.michael barbaroCPAC being the Conservative Political Action Committee, not a group we associate with a performing arts center.elizabeth williamsonExactly.archived recording 10This is the official ball for the World Cup, and we are now going to do the draw.elizabeth williamsonFor free, FIFA came in for their draw that year, which was something that the president really liked and wanted.archived recording 10President Trump, up to you. Don\u2019t forget to mingle, to mix.archived recording (donald trump)I think I know what this is going to be now.elizabeth williamsonIt suddenly became the kind of place that would welcome him in the way that he expected to be welcomed in his first term. So while Trump and Grenell were complaining that the Kennedy Center had been captured by the political left, in fact, they were embarking on a project to make it a political playground of the right. And I think the apotheosis of this was the Kennedy Center Honors. Not only did he attend with all of his friends and his political supporters \u2014archived recording (donald trump)A very big hello and welcome to \u2014elizabeth williamsonHe made himself the emcee of the Event.archived recording (donald trump)This Is the first time that a president of the United States has ever hosted this phenomenal event. I don\u2019t know why I\u2019m doing it.elizabeth williamsonAnd as he was presenting the honors and speaking, he started to hint around at the idea that maybe this place is so welcoming on the inside.archived recording (donald trump)Trump Kennedy Center \u2014 I mean, Kennedy \u2014 I\u2019m sorry. I\u2019m sorry.elizabeth williamsonMaybe my name should be on the outside.[BOUNCY MUSIC]And less than two weeks later, his hand-picked board met, and they voted to put his name on the outside of the center.michael barbaroThey took the hint.elizabeth williamsonThey did. And his name went on the center one day later, and he got top billing over John F. Kennedy. And so then the center became renamed The Donald J. Trump and, on the first line, The John F. Kennedy Memorial Center for the Performing Arts on the second line.michael barbaroSo Trump basically puts his name atop the original name. And my recollection is it\u2019s basically the same scale of font.elizabeth williamsonExactly. And it had this sense of being less a renaming and more of a giant edit. But it was the way they could do it in the swiftest way possible.michael barbaroElizabeth, what was the reaction when everyone wakes up to this edit to The John F. Kennedy Performing Arts Center\u2019s signage?elizabeth williamsonThe reaction was swift, and it was profound. This was plain and simple now his, and anyone who passed by could see that.[BOUNCY MUSIC]And this renaming really was the beginning of the end, because it triggered a legal battle that brought us to where we are today, with the center closed, maybe indefinitely.michael barbaroWe\u2019ll be right back.So, Elizabeth, how does Trump\u2019s decision to put his name on the Kennedy Center become, as you say, the beginning of the end for the center? Tell us about this legal battle.elizabeth williamsonSo on the Kennedy Center board, there are these so-called ex officio members. They\u2019re members of Congress that could not be purged by the president when he remade the board. And one of them is Joyce Beatty, a Congresswoman from Ohio. She filed suit after he renamed the center, and her argument was that, legally, this renaming could only be done by Congress.michael barbaroAnd what\u2019s her logic there?elizabeth williamsonWell, it\u2019s based in the center\u2019s origins. So back in the 1950s, when Dwight D. Eisenhower established what he wanted to be a globally recognized cultural center, it took an act of Congress to do that. So in 1958, Congress passed legislation establishing what was called the National Cultural Center.michael barbaroAnd that was its official name, the National Cultural Center.elizabeth williamsonYes, exactly. And when Kennedy was elected, he and First Lady Jackie Kennedy were big champions of the arts and the performing arts in particular. So they worked with Eisenhower and his wife, Mamie Eisenhower, to build support and funds for the new National Cultural Center. After Kennedy was assassinated, Congress stepped in again, and they renamed the National Cultural Center in Kennedy\u2019s honor, as a living memorial to him. So Congresswoman Beatty\u2019s argument is basically that because Congress turned this into a memorial to President Kennedy, only an act of Congress can change the name back or to something else.michael barbaroRight, not the president and not even the Kennedy Center\u2019s board, only Congress. Got it.elizabeth williamsonThat\u2019s right.michael barbaroSo what happens with the lawsuit?elizabeth williamsonSo pretty swiftly, a court rules that Beatty is right, that it would take an act of Congress to rename the building. And around the same time, the president hates this idea, of course.michael barbaroThat his name would come off of it.elizabeth williamsonThat his name would come off the building. And so when word spread of that, Washington had a whole day knowing that this was going to happen, and this festival-like crowd gathered to watch. So it was hundreds of people chanting, singing, waiting for his name to come off.So finally, they rolled scaffolding into place, and the crowd really went crazy, thinking, OK, this is finally going to happen. And the director of the center could look out and see that this was something that the president wasn\u2019t really going to want to see on TV. So then they started to unroll tarps that would obscure the entire operation of removing his name off the building.michael barbaroHide it, basically.elizabeth williamsonExactly. So behind the tarps, they started to take the letters off, but they did this at 2:30, 3 o\u2019clock in the morning. By that time, most of the crowd was gone. And so there was a relative handful of us that could sneak and peer around the edge of the tarps where they met the wall of the center. That was really all you had a window into. And then beyond that, they left the tarps up, where they remained to this day. So you could never see that his name had been removed.michael barbaroBut of course, his name was removed, even if the removal remains hidden by a tarp. And given everything you\u2019ve laid out in our conversation, I have to imagine that this was a really painful moment for Trump, because his entire answer to this wounded relationship he had with the Kennedy Center was to take it over and to make it more and more his own. And for a brief, shining moment, he literally has his name on the outside. The takeover is total and complete. But now that is being taken from him.elizabeth williamsonYeah, and you could see that by the emergence of a different argument vis-a-vis the Kennedy Center. And that was the president increasingly started to say that the center is in terrible disrepair. And this was really ironic, because a year prior, he had gotten $527 million from the Big Beautiful Bill to do renovations of the Kennedy Center. And Congress appropriates money every year for maintenance of the Kennedy Center. So what was happening here?In fact, the new director of the Kennedy Center after Rick Grenell departed was a guy whose specialty \u2014 according to the president, he\u2019s a pro at construction. Why had this center suddenly become so dangerous as soon as his name came off the building that it would have to be closed?michael barbaroSo if I\u2019m reading between the lines of what you\u2019re saying here, it seems like once the president has lost the battle to have his name on the outside of the building, he begins to lose interest in the Kennedy Center functioning at all.elizabeth williamsonEither it\u2019s mine or it\u2019s closed. And then he starts to go further and say, well, maybe it doesn\u2019t need just to be closed. Maybe the center will be demolished. It\u2019ll be ripped down. On social media, in comments to reporters, he starts to raise the idea that it would be torn down completely.michael barbaroAll the president\u2019s talk about the need for renovations and this rather drastic thought that perhaps the Kennedy Center should be demolished, all seems to rest on the idea that the Kennedy Center is in really sad, sorry, dangerous shape. Is that true?elizabeth williamsonWell, I\u2019m not an engineer, but I can say that over the last few months, I\u2019ve probably made 25 trips to the Kennedy Center. I never saw anything that suggested a serious danger to people\u2019s safety. But what happened earlier this month was that heavy storms in Washington brought down a 5-foot chunk of plaster in the main foyer of the building.This is something that definitely needed to be repaired, but instead of just making that repair. They closed that enormous section of the building. They found security camera footage of the plaster actually falling, spread that around on social media. They measured the shards of plaster as they lay on the carpet. They measured the size of what they called a debris field like this was a plane crash.Nobody cleaned up the mess left by the falling plaster for two weeks. In the meantime, this chunk of plaster became a sort of politically tinged argument for giving the president what he wants, a closure of the place, which is exactly what happened on September 15. The Kennedy Center board voted to close the building entirely.michael barbaroElizabeth, what\u2019s the impact of the Kennedy Center being totally closed now?elizabeth williamson2,500 people have lost their jobs. There are no paid performances there any longer, where there used to be many in a day. There are no tours. No one sees the exhibits, the art, anything. It\u2019s just the absolute antithesis of how Presidents Eisenhower and Kennedy and Congress conceived it.archived recording 11The John F. Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts.elizabeth williamsonAnd that led to protests last week by thousands of people.archived recording 12This place has a lot of personal memories for me, times that I went on my first date here, came here with my family, came here with my husband.elizabeth williamsonWho came just to say, sure, this needs to reopen, but also just to mourn all that had happened that had gotten it to that point.archived recording 13I played 18 hours of Christmas music in the grand hall at Christmas time this last year.elizabeth williamsonPeople who had a lot of memories in the place.archived recording 14Well, when my mom was alive, every Mother\u2019s Day, we got her a ticket to the summer musical, and that was an annual family tradition.elizabeth williamsonAnd they wanted to share what it meant to them.archived recording 15I mean, it\u2019s a beloved art space for all of us, an affordable option for many people if you couldn\u2019t afford to buy tickets.elizabeth williamsonIt put the lie to the way the president had characterized the Kennedy Center, that it was a place that welcomed everybody, that really set out to bring people in, not to exclude them.[CHEERING]And at one point during the protest, people linked hands to form a human chain around the building.[SHOUTING]And it was like they were protecting something that was a living thing. And to them, it was a living thing. But now it was padlocked and closed and fenced off.[SOMBER MUSIC]The opera has moved elsewhere. They perform outside the Kennedy Center now. The symphony performs elsewhere. The performances that were there took years to book.michael barbaroYou\u2019re saying firing up this particular machine, if it were to happen even tomorrow, would take a very, very long time. The arts just don\u2019t show up in a center like this on a dime.elizabeth williamsonExactly.And now that Trump has so thoroughly politicized it and personalized it, made the Kennedy Center entirely about himself, all that is gone, And there\u2019s no guarantee even if it does return that it could ever be the same as it was before.[SOMBER MUSIC]michael barbaroWell, Elizabeth, thank you very much.We appreciate it.elizabeth williamsonThank you, Michael.[SOMBER MUSIC]We\u2019ll be right back.michael barbaroHere\u2019s what else you need to know today.archived recording 16Some MS NOW journalists are just now regaining access to the White House, happening as we have been speaking right now.michael barbaroOn Thursday afternoon, reporters for CNN, Politico, and MS NOW were allowed to re-enter the White House grounds after a federal judge ruled hours earlier that the president\u2019s decision to ban them was likely unconstitutional.archived recording (peter alexander)Laura, if you hear me, I want to get to you right away for the latest in what your experience has been.archived recording (laura barron-lopez)Yeah, I hear you, Peter. So I was just allowed back into the White House through the Northwest Gate.michael barbaroTrump\u2019s compliance with the ruling brought to an end for now a days-long standoff over press freedom. That standoff triggered a rare act of coordinated protest by major TV networks, which have refused to record and distribute video of the president as they usually do. And the average 30-year mortgage rate surpassed 7 percent this week, an ominous sign for a housing market in which prices are already historically high and out of reach. Economists say that with borrowing costs this steep, potential buyers are increasingly unlikely to purchase a home.[THEME MUSIC]Today\u2019s episode was produced by Lexie Diao, Jack D\u2019Isidoro, and Eric Krupke. It was edited by Patricia Willens, with help from Michael Benoist, contains original music by Diane Wong, and music by Marion Lozano, Will Reid, Elisheba Ittoop, and Dan Powell, and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Wonderly. Special thanks to Efim Shapiro. That\u2019s it for \u201cThe Daily.\u201d I\u2019m Michael Barbaro. See you on Sunday.The DailySubscribe:Apple PodcastsGoogle PodcastsSept. 25, 2026The Life and, for Now, the Death of the Kennedy CenterThe arts center has been a project of President Trump since the beginning of his second term. TranscriptBack to The Daily0:00\/32:52-0:00transcriptThe Life and, for Now, the Death of the Kennedy CenterThe arts center has been a project of President Trump since the beginning of his second term. 2026-09-25T06:00:14-04:00This transcript was created using speech recognition software. While it has been reviewed by human transcribers, it may contain errors. Please review the episode audio before quoting from this transcript and email transcripts@nytimes.com with any questions.[CHIME RINGS]sandy weisswasserOh, yeah. Yeah, this is what they play when the performance is about to start. You\u2019re calling people in.[PENSIVE MUSIC]elizabeth williamsonSo a few months ago, I took a tour of the Kennedy Center with a tour guide there.elizabeth williamsonOh, can I get your name?sandy weisswasserOh, Sandy Weisswasser.elizabeth williamsonOK.elizabeth williamsonA volunteer named Sandy Weisswasser.elizabeth williamsonWow, I got to spell that out.sandy weisswasserW-E-I-S-S-W-A-S \u2014elizabeth williamsonShe\u2019s 87 years old. She\u2019s a huge bundle of energy. And for the last 20 years, she\u2019s given tours every single Monday.elizabeth williamsonAre you an artist yourself?sandy weisswasserAm I an artist? No. I play the piano, though.elizabeth williamsonYou do?sandy weisswasserAnd I care a lot about the arts. I mean, I love ballet and opera. And \u2014elizabeth williamsonBefore President Trump took over the Kennedy Center, Sandy\u2019s tours were always packed. But then he took over, made a lot of changes, and people stopped coming. And so on the day that I was there, the center was empty, and I was the only person on Sandy\u2019s tour.sandy weisswasserSo this foyer apparently is one of the largest \u2014elizabeth williamsonAnd as she walked me through the center \u2014sandy weisswasserThe largest gift is this marble, which comes from Carrara, Italy. Beautiful chandelier is done by Dale Chihuly.elizabeth williamsonIt was clear how proud she was of the place.sandy weisswasserI like the undulating quality of it.elizabeth williamsonAnd how much she reveres it.sandy weisswasserNo bad seat in the place.elizabeth williamsonNo, it doesn\u2019t look like it.elizabeth williamsonBut at some point in the tour, it occurred to me that she was speaking in the past tense.sandy weisswasserThat\u2019s the other thing. When I give my tours now, do I give them present tense or past tense? It\u2019s very hard. What word to use? Many verbs, anyway.elizabeth williamsonAnd the tour she was giving was kind of a tour of wreckage. And what she was explaining and all of her memories started to sound a lot to me like a eulogy.sandy weisswasserSo I mean, all these little things about all the performers that are no longer here is very sad.elizabeth williamsonAnd it also became clear that in Sandy\u2019s mind, there was one person responsible for all that had happened to the Kennedy Center.elizabeth williamsonYes.sandy weisswasserI mean, this place used to be really thriving and busy and crowded. Now it\u2019s very empty.elizabeth williamsonAnd that was President Trump.michael barbaroFrom \u201cThe New York Times,\u201d I\u2019m Michael Barbaro. This is \u201cThe Daily.\u201d[SOMBER MUSIC]Today the life and, for the time being, the death of the Kennedy Center. My colleague Elizabeth Williamson brings us the story of how President Trump decided to take over and now shut down Washington\u2019s biggest and most celebrated home for the arts.[ROUSING MUSIC]It\u2019s Friday, September 25.Elizabeth, welcome back to \u201cThe Daily.\u201delizabeth williamsonMichael, it\u2019s great to join you.michael barbaroYou have been watching the Kennedy Center shutdown for months, first gradually and then abruptly, when it literally closed its doors about 10 days ago. So we\u2019re coming to you for what feels a bit like a postmortem here to understand why President Trump has closed this place down. And I think any good postmortem has to begin with the question of motivation. How do you think about his motivation here?elizabeth williamsonI think you have to go back to President Trump\u2019s first term. Remember, this was a really brutal election with a surprise result. He comes into the White House. He had been roundly rejected by cultural elites in New York City, the epicenter of the nation\u2019s cultural life. And he comes into Washington, where the center of the cultural life in the capital is the Kennedy Center.And he\u2019s thinking, I\u2019m the president now. So surely, he\u2019ll be welcomed more broadly by the culture once he\u2019s in the White House. But instead, that rejection really continued. And there was probably no better example in that first year than the annual Kennedy Center Honors, which is the Kennedy Center\u2019s biggest night of the year.michael barbaroAnd what form does that rejection take?elizabeth williamsonSo three of the five honorees in 2017 said that they either would not come to the White House for the presentation of the actual medals before the ceremony at the Kennedy Center or they were considering not coming.archived recording 1Why did you decide not to do that?archived recording (norman lear)Because he\u2019s made me feel it\u2019s not my White House.elizabeth williamsonThe first to say this was Norman Lear, who created \u201cAll in the Family\u201d and many of our most beloved sitcoms and television shows.archived recording (norman lear)But I\u2019ve gotten over that. It is my White House. It oughtn\u2019t to be his.elizabeth williamsonAnd Carmen de Lavallade, a dancer and choreographer, said out and out, no.archived recording (carmen de lavallade)I just can\u2019t. I\u2019m absolutely not going. I\u2019m 86 now. I have all these years. I have done what anybody asked me to, and this is the first time in my life I\u2019ve ever said no.elizabeth williamsonLionel Richie, who was also an honoree that year, said, well \u2014archived recording (lionel richie)I\u2019m going to just play it by ear.elizabeth williamsonI can\u2019t decide if I\u2019ll go.archived recording (lionel richie)I must tell you, I\u2019m not really happy as to what\u2019s going on right now with the controversies.elizabeth williamsonAnd I think that was quite a realization for him. He had gotten to the absolute top of our hierarchy. And still, that rejection continued. So Trump\u2019s response to that was to say, OK, if you don\u2019t want me, I don\u2019t want you either. And he just was generally a no show for the entirety of his four-year term.michael barbaroSo for the next four years, Trump basically boycotts the Kennedy Center and thoroughly writes it off.elizabeth williamsonYes. And so when he begins his second term in 2025, this is now \u2014 he\u2019s newly energized. He\u2019s got a different agenda when he comes in in his second term. As we well know, he is vowing to be people\u2019s retribution. But he\u2019s also remaking aspects of society, including our cultural life. He comes in as an anti-woke president. He won on that. So barely in office for a month, 18 days to be exact, he starts to launch a plan to take over the Kennedy Center.michael barbaroAnd take it over how? Just logistically, what power does he have over it, and how does he end up taking it over?elizabeth williamsonSo the president has the power to appoint board members to the Kennedy Center, and they basically oversee the running of the center itself. Typically, the board members serve six-year terms. So you had overlapping administration board members, appointees.michael barbaroDemocrats, Republicans.elizabeth williamsonExactly, yeah. And they work together. And that was the way the Kennedy Center was designed. But he came in and eliminated all of the Biden-era appointees wholesale and then stacked the board with people who were loyal to himself, his Chief of Staff, Susie Wiles, the wife of the vice president, Usha Vance, Howard Lutnick\u2019s wife. And so they came in and took over the board, and then their first move was to vote to replace the chairman with Mr. Trump. And the existing chairman, David Rubenstein, he had personally given $111 million to the Kennedy Center, its facilities and its programming.michael barbaroSo immediately, the president replaces this mega-philanthropist to the Kennedy Center with basically himself?elizabeth williamsonYes.michael barbaroAnd what does Chairman of the Kennedy Center, Trump, do with this newfound power?archived recording (donald trump)It\u2019s a very exciting development.elizabeth williamsonSo President Trump convenes a call with his new handpicked board members, but he starts by bashing it as what he thinks it is.archived recording (donald trump)It got very wokey.elizabeth williamsonA bastion of cultural elites.archived recording (donald trump)And some people were not happy with it, and some people refuse to go. And we\u2019re not going to have that. We\u2019re going to have \u2014elizabeth williamsonDoing programming that everyday Americans aren\u2019t interested in and might even be offended by. And he\u2019s going to change all that.archived recording (donald trump)I think we\u2019re going to make it hot. And we made the presidency hot. So this should be easy.elizabeth williamsonAnd make the Kennedy Center hot again.archived recording (donald trump)So thank you all very much for your time. And \u2014michael barbaroI\u2019m curious if there\u2019s any truth to what Trump is saying to this board. Is it elitist? Does it have a left-wing tilt?elizabeth williamsonSo I think here is where you realize what a radical misconception the president was laboring under, and partly due to the fact that for his entire first term, he didn\u2019t step foot in the Kennedy Center.[CLASSICAL MUSIC]So it has a symphony. It has an opera. But the vast majority of its programming is meant to be entertainment, popular works.archived recording 2I\u2019ll just \u2014 I\u2019ll go backstage.archived recording 3Hey. Oh, that\u2019s OK. That\u2019s OK. I know that song. That\u2019s about my favorite street.archived recording 4Oh, Big Bird. Big Bird.archived recording 3Elmo!elizabeth williamsonSo you\u2019re talking about performances like Big Bird and Sesame Street characters.(SINGING) You make me feelYou make me feelAretha Franklin.archived recording 5Ladies and gentlemen, Garth Brooks.elizabeth williamsonGarth Brooks.[\"shower the people\" playing](SINGING) You can play the gameYou can act out the partFamous church chorale groups.[PIANO PLAYING](SINGING) Woo!The Washington Ballet had its children\u2019s recital. It was their chance to dance on the big stage.michael barbaroLocal little kids doing ballet.elizabeth williamsonYes, entire classes of school children came. My own children\u2019s classes came. Kids could run down the hall, the grand foyer, which is two football fields long. It was a wide-open place. My older son mentioned that the first time he ever saw \u201cJaws\u201d was projected on the side of The REACH, which is the Kennedy Center annex on a summer night.[OMINOUS MUSIC]archived recording 6Shut off that engine.michael barbaroPretty popular.elizabeth williamsonYeah, exactly. It was the kind of place meant to be open for everyone.archived recording 7You\u2019re going to need a bigger boat.michael barbaroWell, Elizabeth, even if the president\u2019s whole approach to the Kennedy Center is based on a radical misconception of it, how does this approach get put into practice in that first few months of him running it?elizabeth williamsonSo to direct the center\u2019s day-to-day activities, he brings on Richard Grenell, who is a partisan warrior, very combative guy. And his job is, really, to remake the center. So he starts berating people in the hallways, complaining about their activities vis-a-vis programming. He conducts mass firings. They started calling it Firing Fridays, where you get an email and you get 20 minutes to leave the building accompanied by security. So as he\u2019s wiping out the staff, one of the departments he targets is the fundraising department. He boasts that he reduced the numbers of people who were charged with bringing money in the door from 93 to 17 fundraisers.michael barbaroWow, a pretty interesting decision for a nonprofit that relies, I assume, quite heavily on fundraising.elizabeth williamsonExactly. So as this purge continues, performers and artists who are scheduled to perform at the center start getting wind of this, and they\u2019re objecting and cancelling. And he starts fighting with them, saying that the reason that they\u2019re leaving is because they are so woke. And I\u2019m trying to do a different thing here, and it doesn\u2019t matter. But the end result was ticket sales are plunging. Audiences are plunging. Performances are being cancelled.michael barbaroSo at this point in our autopsy, Trump via Grenell is taking actions that become offensive to these artists, who are turning around and undertaking the protests that would seem to make Trump\u2019s point about elitism, even if originally Trump\u2019s approach to the center was inaccurate.elizabeth williamsonYeah. So while Grenell is claiming that this exodus of artists was due to ideological reasons, at the same time, he starts to use ideology as a basis for extending invitations to others to come into the center.archived recording 8Hello, everyone. Good morning.elizabeth williamsonLike CPAC staged a conference on ending Christian persecution.archived recording 9Beautiful, beautiful and historic facility. And I just want to give a thanks to President of the Kennedy Center, Richard Grenell, for giving us the space. We were supposed to be \u2014elizabeth williamsonThey received a deeply discounted rate for renting the center.michael barbaroCPAC being the Conservative Political Action Committee, not a group we associate with a performing arts center.elizabeth williamsonExactly.archived recording 10This is the official ball for the World Cup, and we are now going to do the draw.elizabeth williamsonFor free, FIFA came in for their draw that year, which was something that the president really liked and wanted.archived recording 10President Trump, up to you. Don\u2019t forget to mingle, to mix.archived recording (donald trump)I think I know what this is going to be now.elizabeth williamsonIt suddenly became the kind of place that would welcome him in the way that he expected to be welcomed in his first term. So while Trump and Grenell were complaining that the Kennedy Center had been captured by the political left, in fact, they were embarking on a project to make it a political playground of the right. And I think the apotheosis of this was the Kennedy Center Honors. Not only did he attend with all of his friends and his political supporters \u2014archived recording (donald trump)A very big hello and welcome to \u2014elizabeth williamsonHe made himself the emcee of the Event.archived recording (donald trump)This Is the first time that a president of the United States has ever hosted this phenomenal event. I don\u2019t know why I\u2019m doing it.elizabeth williamsonAnd as he was presenting the honors and speaking, he started to hint around at the idea that maybe this place is so welcoming on the inside.archived recording (donald trump)Trump Kennedy Center \u2014 I mean, Kennedy \u2014 I\u2019m sorry. I\u2019m sorry.elizabeth williamsonMaybe my name should be on the outside.[BOUNCY MUSIC]And less than two weeks later, his hand-picked board met, and they voted to put his name on the outside of the center.michael barbaroThey took the hint.elizabeth williamsonThey did. And his name went on the center one day later, and he got top billing over John F. Kennedy. And so then the center became renamed The Donald J. Trump and, on the first line, The John F. Kennedy Memorial Center for the Performing Arts on the second line.michael barbaroSo Trump basically puts his name atop the original name. And my recollection is it\u2019s basically the same scale of font.elizabeth williamsonExactly. And it had this sense of being less a renaming and more of a giant edit. But it was the way they could do it in the swiftest way possible.michael barbaroElizabeth, what was the reaction when everyone wakes up to this edit to The John F. Kennedy Performing Arts Center\u2019s signage?elizabeth williamsonThe reaction was swift, and it was profound. This was plain and simple now his, and anyone who passed by could see that.[BOUNCY MUSIC]And this renaming really was the beginning of the end, because it triggered a legal battle that brought us to where we are today, with the center closed, maybe indefinitely.michael barbaroWe\u2019ll be right back.So, Elizabeth, how does Trump\u2019s decision to put his name on the Kennedy Center become, as you say, the beginning of the end for the center? Tell us about this legal battle.elizabeth williamsonSo on the Kennedy Center board, there are these so-called ex officio members. They\u2019re members of Congress that could not be purged by the president when he remade the board. And one of them is Joyce Beatty, a Congresswoman from Ohio. She filed suit after he renamed the center, and her argument was that, legally, this renaming could only be done by Congress.michael barbaroAnd what\u2019s her logic there?elizabeth williamsonWell, it\u2019s based in the center\u2019s origins. So back in the 1950s, when Dwight D. Eisenhower established what he wanted to be a globally recognized cultural center, it took an act of Congress to do that. So in 1958, Congress passed legislation establishing what was called the National Cultural Center.michael barbaroAnd that was its official name, the National Cultural Center.elizabeth williamsonYes, exactly. And when Kennedy was elected, he and First Lady Jackie Kennedy were big champions of the arts and the performing arts in particular. So they worked with Eisenhower and his wife, Mamie Eisenhower, to build support and funds for the new National Cultural Center. After Kennedy was assassinated, Congress stepped in again, and they renamed the National Cultural Center in Kennedy\u2019s honor, as a living memorial to him. So Congresswoman Beatty\u2019s argument is basically that because Congress turned this into a memorial to President Kennedy, only an act of Congress can change the name back or to something else.michael barbaroRight, not the president and not even the Kennedy Center\u2019s board, only Congress. Got it.elizabeth williamsonThat\u2019s right.michael barbaroSo what happens with the lawsuit?elizabeth williamsonSo pretty swiftly, a court rules that Beatty is right, that it would take an act of Congress to rename the building. And around the same time, the president hates this idea, of course.michael barbaroThat his name would come off of it.elizabeth williamsonThat his name would come off the building. And so when word spread of that, Washington had a whole day knowing that this was going to happen, and this festival-like crowd gathered to watch. So it was hundreds of people chanting, singing, waiting for his name to come off.So finally, they rolled scaffolding into place, and the crowd really went crazy, thinking, OK, this is finally going to happen. And the director of the center could look out and see that this was something that the president wasn\u2019t really going to want to see on TV. So then they started to unroll tarps that would obscure the entire operation of removing his name off the building.michael barbaroHide it, basically.elizabeth williamsonExactly. So behind the tarps, they started to take the letters off, but they did this at 2:30, 3 o\u2019clock in the morning. By that time, most of the crowd was gone. And so there was a relative handful of us that could sneak and peer around the edge of the tarps where they met the wall of the center. That was really all you had a window into. And then beyond that, they left the tarps up, where they remained to this day. So you could never see that his name had been removed.michael barbaroBut of course, his name was removed, even if the removal remains hidden by a tarp. And given everything you\u2019ve laid out in our conversation, I have to imagine that this was a really painful moment for Trump, because his entire answer to this wounded relationship he had with the Kennedy Center was to take it over and to make it more and more his own. And for a brief, shining moment, he literally has his name on the outside. The takeover is total and complete. But now that is being taken from him.elizabeth williamsonYeah, and you could see that by the emergence of a different argument vis-a-vis the Kennedy Center. And that was the president increasingly started to say that the center is in terrible disrepair. And this was really ironic, because a year prior, he had gotten $527 million from the Big Beautiful Bill to do renovations of the Kennedy Center. And Congress appropriates money every year for maintenance of the Kennedy Center. So what was happening here?In fact, the new director of the Kennedy Center after Rick Grenell departed was a guy whose specialty \u2014 according to the president, he\u2019s a pro at construction. Why had this center suddenly become so dangerous as soon as his name came off the building that it would have to be closed?michael barbaroSo if I\u2019m reading between the lines of what you\u2019re saying here, it seems like once the president has lost the battle to have his name on the outside of the building, he begins to lose interest in the Kennedy Center functioning at all.elizabeth williamsonEither it\u2019s mine or it\u2019s closed. And then he starts to go further and say, well, maybe it doesn\u2019t need just to be closed. Maybe the center will be demolished. It\u2019ll be ripped down. On social media, in comments to reporters, he starts to raise the idea that it would be torn down completely.michael barbaroAll the president\u2019s talk about the need for renovations and this rather drastic thought that perhaps the Kennedy Center should be demolished, all seems to rest on the idea that the Kennedy Center is in really sad, sorry, dangerous shape. Is that true?elizabeth williamsonWell, I\u2019m not an engineer, but I can say that over the last few months, I\u2019ve probably made 25 trips to the Kennedy Center. I never saw anything that suggested a serious danger to people\u2019s safety. But what happened earlier this month was that heavy storms in Washington brought down a 5-foot chunk of plaster in the main foyer of the building.This is something that definitely needed to be repaired, but instead of just making that repair. They closed that enormous section of the building. They found security camera footage of the plaster actually falling, spread that around on social media. They measured the shards of plaster as they lay on the carpet. They measured the size of what they called a debris field like this was a plane crash.Nobody cleaned up the mess left by the falling plaster for two weeks. In the meantime, this chunk of plaster became a sort of politically tinged argument for giving the president what he wants, a closure of the place, which is exactly what happened on September 15. The Kennedy Center board voted to close the building entirely.michael barbaroElizabeth, what\u2019s the impact of the Kennedy Center being totally closed now?elizabeth williamson2,500 people have lost their jobs. There are no paid performances there any longer, where there used to be many in a day. There are no tours. No one sees the exhibits, the art, anything. It\u2019s just the absolute antithesis of how Presidents Eisenhower and Kennedy and Congress conceived it.archived recording 11The John F. Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts.elizabeth williamsonAnd that led to protests last week by thousands of people.archived recording 12This place has a lot of personal memories for me, times that I went on my first date here, came here with my family, came here with my husband.elizabeth williamsonWho came just to say, sure, this needs to reopen, but also just to mourn all that had happened that had gotten it to that point.archived recording 13I played 18 hours of Christmas music in the grand hall at Christmas time this last year.elizabeth williamsonPeople who had a lot of memories in the place.archived recording 14Well, when my mom was alive, every Mother\u2019s Day, we got her a ticket to the summer musical, and that was an annual family tradition.elizabeth williamsonAnd they wanted to share what it meant to them.archived recording 15I mean, it\u2019s a beloved art space for all of us, an affordable option for many people if you couldn\u2019t afford to buy tickets.elizabeth williamsonIt put the lie to the way the president had characterized the Kennedy Center, that it was a place that welcomed everybody, that really set out to bring people in, not to exclude them.[CHEERING]And at one point during the protest, people linked hands to form a human chain around the building.[SHOUTING]And it was like they were protecting something that was a living thing. And to them, it was a living thing. But now it was padlocked and closed and fenced off.[SOMBER MUSIC]The opera has moved elsewhere. They perform outside the Kennedy Center now. The symphony performs elsewhere. The performances that were there took years to book.michael barbaroYou\u2019re saying firing up this particular machine, if it were to happen even tomorrow, would take a very, very long time. The arts just don\u2019t show up in a center like this on a dime.elizabeth williamsonExactly.And now that Trump has so thoroughly politicized it and personalized it, made the Kennedy Center entirely about himself, all that is gone, And there\u2019s no guarantee even if it does return that it could ever be the same as it was before.[SOMBER MUSIC]michael barbaroWell, Elizabeth, thank you very much.We appreciate it.elizabeth williamsonThank you, Michael.[SOMBER MUSIC]We\u2019ll be right back.michael barbaroHere\u2019s what else you need to know today.archived recording 16Some MS NOW journalists are just now regaining access to the White House, happening as we have been speaking right now.michael barbaroOn Thursday afternoon, reporters for CNN, Politico, and MS NOW were allowed to re-enter the White House grounds after a federal judge ruled hours earlier that the president\u2019s decision to ban them was likely unconstitutional.archived recording (peter alexander)Laura, if you hear me, I want to get to you right away for the latest in what your experience has been.archived recording (laura barron-lopez)Yeah, I hear you, Peter. So I was just allowed back into the White House through the Northwest Gate.michael barbaroTrump\u2019s compliance with the ruling brought to an end for now a days-long standoff over press freedom. That standoff triggered a rare act of coordinated protest by major TV networks, which have refused to record and distribute video of the president as they usually do. And the average 30-year mortgage rate surpassed 7 percent this week, an ominous sign for a housing market in which prices are already historically high and out of reach. Economists say that with borrowing costs this steep, potential buyers are increasingly unlikely to purchase a home.[THEME MUSIC]Today\u2019s episode was produced by Lexie Diao, Jack D\u2019Isidoro, and Eric Krupke. It was edited by Patricia Willens, with help from Michael Benoist, contains original music by Diane Wong, and music by Marion Lozano, Will Reid, Elisheba Ittoop, and Dan Powell, and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Wonderly. Special thanks to Efim Shapiro. That\u2019s it for \u201cThe Daily.\u201d I\u2019m Michael Barbaro. See you on Sunday.Listen 32:52 PreviousMore episodes ofThe DailyOctober 1, 2026 \u2022 31:53Why Washington Is Trying to Rein In College SportsSeptember 30, 2026 \u2022 25:38Inside the Devastating Hack of the F.B.I.September 29, 2026 \u2022 26:58Are Prediction Markets Gambling? A Lot Rides on the Answer.September 28, 2026 \u2022 28:56He Was Deported to a Country He\u2019d Never Heard OfSeptember 27, 2026 \u2022 59:22The Best TV Shows of the 21st CenturySeptember 25, 2026 \u2022 32:52The Life and, for Now, the Death of the Kennedy CenterSeptember 24, 2026 \u2022 38:44What Safeguarding Nukes Can Teach Us About Safeguarding A.I.September 23, 2026 \u2022 34:04Health Trackers Are Everywhere. Do Babies Need Them, Too?September 22, 2026 \u2022 29:48Trump Banned the Media. This Time, the Media Struck Back.September 21, 2026 \u2022 26:42The Trump Administration Defangs the Endangered Species ActSeptember 20, 2026 \u2022 39:02How a 1,000-Year-Old Tapestry Took London by StormSeptember 18, 2026 \u2022 34:25The Techno-Religion at the Center of the A.I. DebateSee All Episodes ofThe DailyNextSept. 25, 2026Share full articleHosted by Michael BarbaroFeaturing Elizabeth WilliamsonProduced by Lexie DiaoJack D\u2019Isidoro and Eric KrupkeEdited by Patricia Willens and Michael BenoistContains music by Elisheba IttoopWill ReidDan Powell and Marion LozanoOriginal music by Diane WongEngineered by Chris WoodFor 50 years, the Kennedy Center was a sprawling public home for opera, theater, jazz and free programs. Last week, it closed its doors for the time being.Elizabeth Williamson traces how President Trump decided to take over and now shut down Washington\u2019s biggest and most celebrated home for the arts.On Today\u2019s EpisodeElizabeth Williamson, a feature writer for The New York Times.ImageThe John F. Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts in Washington this month.Credit...Salwan Georges for The New York TimesBackground ReadingInternal emails and documents demonstrate how President Trump broke the Kennedy Center.The center removed a sculpture called \u201cBlue\u201d that had been a gift from the artist.Listen to and Follow \u2018The Daily\u2019Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Amazon Music | YouTube | iHeartRadioUnlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com\/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.FeedbackTune in, and tell us what you think at thedaily@nytimes.com. For corrections, email: nytnews@nytimes.com. Follow our hosts on X: Michael Barbaro @mikiebarb, Rachel Abrams @RachelAbramsNY and Natalie Kitroeff @NataliekitroSpecial thanks to Efim Shapiro.The Daily is made by Rachel Quester, Lynsea Garrison, Clare Toeniskoetter, Paige Cowett, Michael Simon Johnson, Chris Wood, Jessica Cheung, Stella Tan, Alexandra Leigh Young, Lisa Chow, Eric Krupke, Marc Georges, M.J. Davis Lin, Dan Powell, Michael Benoist, Liz O. Baylen, Asthaa Chaturvedi, Rachelle Bonja, Diana Nguyen, Marion Lozano, Rob Szypko, Elisheba Ittoop, Patricia Willens, Rowan Niemisto, Jody Becker, Rikki Novetsky, Nina Feldman, Carlos Prieto, Ben Calhoun, Susan Lee, Lexie Diao, Mary Wilson, Alex Stern, Sophia Lanman, Shannon M. Lin, Diane Wong, Devon Taylor, Alyssa Moxley, Olivia Natt, Daniel Ramirez, Brendan Klinkenberg, Chris Haxel, Maria Byrne, Anna Foley, Lena Richards, Caitlin O\u2019Keefe, Wendy Dorr, Luke Vander Ploeg, Tina Antolini, Alex Barron, Annie Minoff, Jack D\u2019Isidoro and Adrienne Hurst.Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsverk of Wonderly. Our Sunday theme music is by Dan Powell. Special thanks to Sam Dolnick, Lisa Tobin, Julia Simon, Elizabeth Davis-Moorer, Maddy Masiello, Isabella Anderson, Nina Lassam, Nick Pitman and Tyler Cabot.We aim to make transcripts available the next workday after an episode\u2019s publication. You can find them at the top of the page.AdvertisementSKIP ADVERTISEMENT",
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    "merged_at": "2026-10-01T15:05:17.725888Z"
}